Solve : Good sub-$1000 laptop for college??

1.	Solve : Good sub-$1000 laptop for college??
Answer» Hey. My brother desires a laptop upgrade soon, mainly because he never found 4 hours of battery life to be nearly enough for him. We're in Canada, in the Greater Toronto area, and it can either be local or online purchase. What he currently has is an Acer-V3 15.6" laptop with an Intel i3-3110M, intel hd4000 graphics, 1366x768 resolution, 750gb 5400rpm hdd. So here's what would be preferred to have in his next laptop: - Price: Less than $1000, preferably in the ~$600-700 range - Battery life: Decent, at least close to enough to last through a full college day if possible - Usage: On battery: Microsoft Office, and wifi surfing. On wall power: office, wifi surfing, online gaming like runescape and playing a few old games such as the roller coaster TYCOON series (which still WORKS fine on windows 8 ) - Operating System: Windows 8 - Screen Size: 14" or 15.6" - Screen resolution: 1600x900 or 1920x1080 (1366x768 wasn't enough) - Touchscreen: Optional, but would be a nice thing to have with the windows 8 interface (and would encourage me to use it for playing taptiles on occasionally =p) - Processor: Intel, preferably an i5 (normal or ulv) - RAM: Two slots (I already got 2 4gb ddr3 1600mhz sticks on spare that could be used for an upgrade to 8gb) - Msata support: Yes * * Storage-wise, I'm thinking of putting in 750gb worth of SSD storage. Or in other words, a $200 512gb crucial mx100 2.5" and a $100 240gb crucial m500 msata. Yes, 512gb isn't enough for him because he also downloads large files such as movies and doesn't want to rely on external drives for his storage * I guess he could also save $200 and simply leave the mechanical drive in and just use the 240gb msata drive as the OS drive too, but I'm not sure if the tradeoff of battery life, vibration, moving parts, and more need to worry about putting some documents on the second drive (instead of leaving programs+documents+os on first and using the 240gb secondary drive as just a large downloads drive) is worth it Any ideas? PS: We've been already started to research and found the Lenovo U430, and the Lenovo Flex 2 as initial possibilites, however I ditched the U430 idea because it lacks any upgradability, and I ditched the Flex idea because it doesn't have an MSATA slot.Games and Good/Long Battery Life do not go hand in hand. Such as I bought a Toshiba Netbook back in 2009 that has an Intel Atom 1.66Ghz CPU and it will run over 9 hours at a measured draw of up to 13.5 watts if just checking e-mail and working on word documents, but when playing Diablo II on it, the battery life is drained down to about 3 to 3.5 hours and its pouring heat out the vent for the full time that the game is running. When I get over 9 hours of use, the CPU is set to down clock from 1.66Ghz down to like 700Mhz when idle and the backlight of the display is set to be green energy efficient where its not super bright, but instead a dim setting to where its easy on your eyes but not an eye strain to read what you typed etc. The solution you would want for a full college day of say 8 hours without it being required to be plugged into an outlet in a classroom is going to be not a very powerful laptop. The Core i3, i5, and i7's even if set up to speedstep to run under clocked when idle are electron hungry processors. You might be able to get 4.5 to 5 hours if not gaming with it constantly on with one that has a SSD drive to reduce the power consumption as much as possible, which is also set to shut off the backlight after 5 MINUTES of inactivity etc. I am not aware of any laptops out there that can run a full 8+ hours with games just off of battery power, although if one was very crafty and didnt mind lugging around a special backpack with it, you could have some 12V sealed lead acid batteries with an inverter to plug your laptop into your backpack when the laptop battery runs low and this then would allow you to run the laptop at the same time that the laptop is charging off of the inverter that is making say 120 watts of 120VAC. If you are looking for a laptop to last say 8 hours on battery only when in class when not running any CPU needy APPLICATIONS and no games, but also able to run games when plugged into an outlet say back at the dorm room, then there are some options out there, but in order for it to be a core i3, i5, or i7 you will have to have the power management heavily configured to pretty much put the computer into sleep mode when inactive for longer than 15 minutes so that your not burning through your battery life when the laptop is idle, but instead it suspends the laptop until its really needed to be interfaced with again in which it comes to life and can be used to stretch the battery life. Link here is to my 5 year old laptop specs... not suggesting this model, but if you want something that runs for a full 8 hour or longer day on just battery power without it going to sleep, the processing power would be low like this one. I have since upgraded it to 2GB RAM and 90GB SSD which made it multitask better with more memory and almost an hour extra battery life with the SSD vs a mechanical 5400RPM 160GB HDD to spin and seek for data. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834114665 Quote from: DaveLembke on September 05, 2014, 01:48:24 PM Games and Good/Long Battery Life do not go hand in hand. Makes sense. I never said games were being played when on battery power. The games he plays anyway are mostly so old that the "Pentium 4" and "Core 2 Duo" are listed under minimum requirements of them, even though his game library may expand in the near-future. Quote from: DaveLembke on September 05, 2014, 01:48:24 PM Such as I bought a Toshiba Netbook back in 2009 that has an Intel Atom 1.66Ghz CPU and it will run over 9 hours I personally bought myself an Intel Atom netbook (Acer D257) back when I was in highschool, I maxed it out with everything like an SSD, 2gb of ram, and a 9-cell battery. Battery life was awesome, but I still could barely stand the speed even when i was internet browsing with it, neither did my brother when he emergency-borrowed it one day (along with the even crappier resolution of it and usability discomfort), (not to mention our college does not accept any laptop that has anything lesser than an Intel i3). In fact my brother was hoping for something at least a little faster cpu-wise than that i3, and higher in resolution, so that's why we settled with an i5 and either a 900p or 1080p screen along with making the whole storage area SSD (also to increase battery life). From research, I've actually found that the i5-4200U is actually on par with the Atom N270 when it comes to power-performance ratio (http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i5-4200U-vs-Intel-Atom-N270), with the i5-4210U/i5-4500U being twice as good as the atom in that ratio (http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i7-4500U-vs-Intel-Atom-N270). Also, the Lenovo U430 managed to reach a pretty respectable 5 hours and 30 minute straight runtime during an automated "Wi-fi Surfing" test (screen's brightness kept to a luminance of 150 cd/m², webpages refreshed by script). Again I ditched that model because it is sealed/non-upgradable. (http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Lenovo-IdeaPad-U430-Touch-Ultrabook.100623.0.html) I actually plan on using Intel XTU to underclock the multipliers slightly along with carefully undervolting it (almost as far as it can go while remaining stable) to take effect when on battery to further increase runtime a little. Another thing I forgot to mention is that he'll also be watching HD movies with it on the outlet, another reason why he wants a higher res screen.I'm currently eye-balling the Lenovo Yoga 2 Pro that I found on newegg, the specs look killer for the money (despite the 4gb ram, the same as what his current laptop is using, which shouldn't impact performance much with an ssd), But there's also one potential flaw I can see, that the screen size is only a 13 incher, and I can't imagine stepping down from 15.6" to 13.3" to be any fun.. (even though we've haven't had the chance to see what a 13.3" laptop looks like in person before)The newest Intel Atom CPU's (Bay Trail series) are nothing like the older ones. Why Intel kept the same name is a mystery to me. The Asus Transformer T100, T200 use these. The T100 has been out for about 1 year & will get 11 hrs use with the Z3740. Latest ones use the Z3775 The T200 has just been released & will get 8 hrs use with the Z3775. Both can be "transformed" to tablets by removing the keyboard/docking station. Both come with Microsoft Office student edition (for free). T100 has 10" screen, T200 has 12" screen. Both are 1366 x 768. There is a T300 that uses the Core-i series, but battery life will be much less. Here's a link to the T100. https://www.asus.com/Notebooks_Ultrabooks/ASUS_Transformer_Book_T100/Personally for college I would look for an ultrabook of some kind (The Yoga is a good option) as they are small, lightweight and have good battery life. The only downside really is that you won't find powerful graphics cards in them. Focusing on the Ultra Low Voltage CPUs (Such as the i5 4200U) would also help battery life, I wouldn't bother with an Atom as they are very WEAK in terms of power nor would I undervolt the CPU as the difference will be minimal and can lead to stability issues. Screen size shouldn't be a massive issue as long as the resolution is the same, text will be slightly smaller but you will be able to fit the same amount of information on it at once. Best thing to do is go to a store to look at different screen sizes/resolutions. Quote from: Computer_Commando on September 09, 2014, 04:48:58 AM The newest Intel Atom CPU's (Bay Trail series) are nothing like the older ones. [the] Latest [Transformerbook] ones use the [Atom] Z3775 I checked the benchmarks of it, it certainly shows up better than the single-core atoms I've struggled with in the past, but it's still behind on performance compared to the first generation i3, therefore it definitely will be rejected by the college's laptop spec requirements of having "at least the performance of a modern i3". (not to mention the laptop is only a downgrade from what he has now in nearly every way except the battery) Quote from: camerongray on September 09, 2014, 05:09:36 AM Focusing on the Ultra Low Voltage CPUs (Such as the i5 4200U) would also help battery life Agreed, this was my initial focus, but didn't over-prioritize on it, I feel battery size is a factor too.I think I found the true winner, the Thinkpad T530! ( http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA5SC1YD1182 ), even though it comes with a last generation cpu and windows 7. According to NotebookCheck, the battery life is substantial with the 9-cell battery according to their battery tests, along with other good things like a great build, 900p display, and msata secondary drive support. He can get Windows 8 free through his college so he'll be find in that regard. Apparently there's an option for a second battery that fits in it's Ultrabay slot, but I couldn't find any 'ultra bay battery' for the T530 (even on ebay). What do you guys think about it? Also, could it be possible that soon-to-be-released broadwell laptops will have even better offerings to the table?I can certainly vouch for ThinkPads but the T530 is an older model (Ivy Bridge) and is very bulky. Look at the modern Haswell ones like the T440 and T440s (I use the T440s) as they are small, lightweight, use current gen stuff and are very efficient. My T440s has both an internal 3 cell and a removable 6 cell battery in it which gives 11 hours of life with the i5 4300U, SSD and 8gb RAM. They also have the option of a 1080p IPS screen which I have in mine. Quote from: camerongray on September 09, 2014, 06:48:59 AM I can certainly vouch for ThinkPads but the T530 is an older model (Ivy Bridge) and is very bulky. Look at the modern Haswell ones like the T440 and T440s (I use the T440s) as they are small, lightweight, use current gen stuff and are very efficient. My T440s has both an internal 3 cell and a removable 6 cell battery in it which gives 11 hours of life with the i5 4300U, SSD and 8gb RAM. They also have the option of a 1080p IPS screen which I have in mine. My Sandy Bridge laptop is only 3 years old & that's considered old. Installed a Samsung SSD which really sped things up. It gets 3 hrs on battery depending on what you're doing. Still not really outdated. http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-HP-ProBook-4530s-Notebook.56747.0.html Quote from: Computer_Commando on September 10, 2014, 04:14:37 PM My Sandy Bridge laptop is only 3 years old & that's considered old. Installed a Samsung SSD which really sped things up. It gets 3 hrs on battery depending on what you're doing. Still not really outdated. http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-HP-ProBook-4530s-Notebook.56747.0.html I didn't say that Sandy/Ivy Bridge are bad at all, but if you are buying a new machine, unless the cost savings are significant then it makes sense to get the newest generation stuff. Quote from: camerongray on September 11, 2014, 02:42:32 AM ...unless the cost savings are significant then it makes sense to get the newest generation stuff. Exactly!

Answer»

Hey. My brother desires a laptop upgrade soon, mainly because he never found 4 hours of battery life to be nearly enough for him. We're in Canada, in the Greater Toronto area, and it can either be local or online purchase. What he currently has is an Acer-V3 15.6" laptop with an Intel i3-3110M, intel hd4000 graphics, 1366x768 resolution, 750gb 5400rpm hdd.

So here's what would be preferred to have in his next laptop:
- Price: Less than $1000, preferably in the ~$600-700 range
- Battery life: Decent, at least close to enough to last through a full college day if possible
- Usage: On battery: Microsoft Office, and wifi surfing.
On wall power: office, wifi surfing, online gaming like runescape and playing a few old games such as the roller coaster TYCOON series (which still WORKS fine on windows 8 )
- Operating System: Windows 8
- Screen Size: 14" or 15.6"
- Screen resolution: 1600x900 or 1920x1080 (1366x768 wasn't enough)
- Touchscreen: Optional, but would be a nice thing to have with the windows 8 interface (and would encourage me to use it for playing taptiles on occasionally =p)
- Processor: Intel, preferably an i5 (normal or ulv)
- RAM: Two slots (I already got 2 4gb ddr3 1600mhz sticks on spare that could be used for an upgrade to 8gb)
- Msata support: Yes *

* Storage-wise, I'm thinking of putting in 750gb worth of SSD storage. Or in other words, a $200 512gb crucial mx100 2.5" and a $100 240gb crucial m500 msata. Yes, 512gb isn't enough for him because he also downloads large files such as movies and doesn't want to rely on external drives for his storage
* I guess he could also save $200 and simply leave the mechanical drive in and just use the 240gb msata drive as the OS drive too, but I'm not sure if the tradeoff of battery life, vibration, moving parts, and more need to worry about putting some documents on the second drive (instead of leaving programs+documents+os on first and using the 240gb secondary drive as just a large downloads drive) is worth it

Any ideas?

PS: We've been already started to research and found the Lenovo U430, and the Lenovo Flex 2 as initial possibilites, however I ditched the U430 idea because it lacks any upgradability, and I ditched the Flex idea because it doesn't have an MSATA slot.Games and Good/Long Battery Life do not go hand in hand. Such as I bought a Toshiba Netbook back in 2009 that has an Intel Atom 1.66Ghz CPU and it will run over 9 hours at a measured draw of up to 13.5 watts if just checking e-mail and working on word documents, but when playing Diablo II on it, the battery life is drained down to about 3 to 3.5 hours and its pouring heat out the vent for the full time that the game is running.

When I get over 9 hours of use, the CPU is set to down clock from 1.66Ghz down to like 700Mhz when idle and the backlight of the display is set to be green energy efficient where its not super bright, but instead a dim setting to where its easy on your eyes but not an eye strain to read what you typed etc.

The solution you would want for a full college day of say 8 hours without it being required to be plugged into an outlet in a classroom is going to be not a very powerful laptop. The Core i3, i5, and i7's even if set up to speedstep to run under clocked when idle are electron hungry processors. You might be able to get 4.5 to 5 hours if not gaming with it constantly on with one that has a SSD drive to reduce the power consumption as much as possible, which is also set to shut off the backlight after 5 MINUTES of inactivity etc.

I am not aware of any laptops out there that can run a full 8+ hours with games just off of battery power, although if one was very crafty and didnt mind lugging around a special backpack with it, you could have some 12V sealed lead acid batteries with an inverter to plug your laptop into your backpack when the laptop battery runs low and this then would allow you to run the laptop at the same time that the laptop is charging off of the inverter that is making say 120 watts of 120VAC.

If you are looking for a laptop to last say 8 hours on battery only when in class when not running any CPU needy APPLICATIONS and no games, but also able to run games when plugged into an outlet say back at the dorm room, then there are some options out there, but in order for it to be a core i3, i5, or i7 you will have to have the power management heavily configured to pretty much put the computer into sleep mode when inactive for longer than 15 minutes so that your not burning through your battery life when the laptop is idle, but instead it suspends the laptop until its really needed to be interfaced with again in which it comes to life and can be used to stretch the battery life.

Link here is to my 5 year old laptop specs... not suggesting this model, but if you want something that runs for a full 8 hour or longer day on just battery power without it going to sleep, the processing power would be low like this one. I have since upgraded it to 2GB RAM and 90GB SSD which made it multitask better with more memory and almost an hour extra battery life with the SSD vs a mechanical 5400RPM 160GB HDD to spin and seek for data. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834114665 Quote from: DaveLembke on September 05, 2014, 01:48:24 PM

Games and Good/Long Battery Life do not go hand in hand.

Makes sense. I never said games were being played when on battery power. The games he plays anyway are mostly so old that the "Pentium 4" and "Core 2 Duo" are listed under minimum requirements of them, even though his game library may expand in the near-future.

Quote from: DaveLembke on September 05, 2014, 01:48:24 PM

Such as I bought a Toshiba Netbook back in 2009 that has an Intel Atom 1.66Ghz CPU and it will run over 9 hours

I personally bought myself an Intel Atom netbook (Acer D257) back when I was in highschool, I maxed it out with everything like an SSD, 2gb of ram, and a 9-cell battery. Battery life was awesome, but I still could barely stand the speed even when i was internet browsing with it, neither did my brother when he emergency-borrowed it one day (along with the even crappier resolution of it and usability discomfort), (not to mention our college does not accept any laptop that has anything lesser than an Intel i3).

In fact my brother was hoping for something at least a little faster cpu-wise than that i3, and higher in resolution, so that's why we settled with an i5 and either a 900p or 1080p screen along with making the whole storage area SSD (also to increase battery life).

From research, I've actually found that the i5-4200U is actually on par with the Atom N270 when it comes to power-performance ratio (http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i5-4200U-vs-Intel-Atom-N270), with the i5-4210U/i5-4500U being twice as good as the atom in that ratio (http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i7-4500U-vs-Intel-Atom-N270).

Also, the Lenovo U430 managed to reach a pretty respectable 5 hours and 30 minute straight runtime during an automated "Wi-fi Surfing" test (screen's brightness kept to a luminance of 150 cd/m², webpages refreshed by script). Again I ditched that model because it is sealed/non-upgradable. (http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Lenovo-IdeaPad-U430-Touch-Ultrabook.100623.0.html)

I actually plan on using Intel XTU to underclock the multipliers slightly along with carefully undervolting it (almost as far as it can go while remaining stable) to take effect when on battery to further increase runtime a little.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that he'll also be watching HD movies with it on the outlet, another reason why he wants a higher res screen.I'm currently eye-balling the Lenovo Yoga 2 Pro that I found on newegg, the specs look killer for the money (despite the 4gb ram, the same as what his current laptop is using, which shouldn't impact performance much with an ssd),
But there's also one potential flaw I can see, that the screen size is only a 13 incher, and I can't imagine stepping down from 15.6" to 13.3" to be any fun.. (even though we've haven't had the chance to see what a 13.3" laptop looks like in person before)The newest Intel Atom CPU's (Bay Trail series) are nothing like the older ones. Why Intel kept the same name is a mystery to me.
The Asus Transformer T100, T200 use these.

The T100 has been out for about 1 year & will get 11 hrs use with the Z3740. Latest ones use the Z3775
The T200 has just been released & will get 8 hrs use with the Z3775.
Both can be "transformed" to tablets by removing the keyboard/docking station.
Both come with Microsoft Office student edition (for free).

T100 has 10" screen, T200 has 12" screen. Both are 1366 x 768. There is a T300 that uses the Core-i series, but battery life will be much less.

Here's a link to the T100.
https://www.asus.com/Notebooks_Ultrabooks/ASUS_Transformer_Book_T100/Personally for college I would look for an ultrabook of some kind (The Yoga is a good option) as they are small, lightweight and have good battery life. The only downside really is that you won't find powerful graphics cards in them. Focusing on the Ultra Low Voltage CPUs (Such as the i5 4200U) would also help battery life, I wouldn't bother with an Atom as they are very WEAK in terms of power nor would I undervolt the CPU as the difference will be minimal and can lead to stability issues.

Screen size shouldn't be a massive issue as long as the resolution is the same, text will be slightly smaller but you will be able to fit the same amount of information on it at once. Best thing to do is go to a store to look at different screen sizes/resolutions. Quote from: Computer_Commando on September 09, 2014, 04:48:58 AM

The newest Intel Atom CPU's (Bay Trail series) are nothing like the older ones. [the] Latest [Transformerbook] ones use the [Atom] Z3775

I checked the benchmarks of it, it certainly shows up better than the single-core atoms I've struggled with in the past, but it's still behind on performance compared to the first generation i3, therefore it definitely will be rejected by the college's laptop spec requirements of having "at least the performance of a modern i3". (not to mention the laptop is only a downgrade from what he has now in nearly every way except the battery)

Quote from: camerongray on September 09, 2014, 05:09:36 AM

Focusing on the Ultra Low Voltage CPUs (Such as the i5 4200U) would also help battery life

Agreed, this was my initial focus, but didn't over-prioritize on it, I feel battery size is a factor too.I think I found the true winner, the Thinkpad T530! ( http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA5SC1YD1182 ), even though it comes with a last generation cpu and windows 7.

According to NotebookCheck, the battery life is substantial with the 9-cell battery according to their battery tests, along with other good things like a great build, 900p display, and msata secondary drive support. He can get Windows 8 free through his college so he'll be find in that regard. Apparently there's an option for a second battery that fits in it's Ultrabay slot, but I couldn't find any 'ultra bay battery' for the T530 (even on ebay).

What do you guys think about it? Also, could it be possible that soon-to-be-released broadwell laptops will have even better offerings to the table?I can certainly vouch for ThinkPads but the T530 is an older model (Ivy Bridge) and is very bulky.

Look at the modern Haswell ones like the T440 and T440s (I use the T440s) as they are small, lightweight, use current gen stuff and are very efficient. My T440s has both an internal 3 cell and a removable 6 cell battery in it which gives 11 hours of life with the i5 4300U, SSD and 8gb RAM. They also have the option of a 1080p IPS screen which I have in mine. Quote from: camerongray on September 09, 2014, 06:48:59 AM

I can certainly vouch for ThinkPads but the T530 is an older model (Ivy Bridge) and is very bulky.

Look at the modern Haswell ones like the T440 and T440s (I use the T440s) as they are small, lightweight, use current gen stuff and are very efficient. My T440s has both an internal 3 cell and a removable 6 cell battery in it which gives 11 hours of life with the i5 4300U, SSD and 8gb RAM. They also have the option of a 1080p IPS screen which I have in mine.

My Sandy Bridge laptop is only 3 years old & that's considered old. Installed a Samsung SSD which really sped things up. It gets 3 hrs on battery depending on what you're doing. Still not really outdated.
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-HP-ProBook-4530s-Notebook.56747.0.html Quote from: Computer_Commando on September 10, 2014, 04:14:37 PM

My Sandy Bridge laptop is only 3 years old & that's considered old. Installed a Samsung SSD which really sped things up. It gets 3 hrs on battery depending on what you're doing. Still not really outdated.
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-HP-ProBook-4530s-Notebook.56747.0.html

I didn't say that Sandy/Ivy Bridge are bad at all, but if you are buying a new machine, unless the cost savings are significant then it makes sense to get the newest generation stuff. Quote from: camerongray on September 11, 2014, 02:42:32 AM

...unless the cost savings are significant then it makes sense to get the newest generation stuff.

Exactly!

Solve : Good sub-$1000 laptop for college??

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