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Solve : Power compatibility for new PC? |
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Answer» Hi, I'm looking to buy a new PC and have them upgrade the graphics card but I'm worried about power compatibility so here what I'm getting. That card calls for 400W minimum...around 550 should be about right. This is assuming that that is a good unit, generally when a power supply is described as '550w PSU with Fan' it's a low quality piece of junk.Did i suggest a "junk" PSU ? ? I don't see that in my Post... He hasn't been specific about some of the components nor where they are from.I wasn't saying that - I just wanted to make sure that the OP checks the PSU that they are getting and doesn't take that 550w is enough to mean that any PSU labelled as "550w" or greater will be fine for their build.There is actually no other info on the power. So I'm guessing it's not good. Link http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/190920499895?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 (BTW) I have heard some stories of eBay computers, but I and many others trust this seller/PC. ThanksThe lack of information they give about their power supplies doesn't bode well for their quality - If they were truly using decent units they would surely at least mention the make/model of the unit they are using. The same applies to their list of "PSU Upgrades". If you are truly set on that PC, your best bet would be to email them and ask what the make/model of PSU they are using or by buying it prepared to replace the PSU with something better before adding your new video card. For that system and a GeForce 650ti you will be fine with anything over 500w but it will need to be good quality from a brand like Corsair, Seasonic, XFX or a newer Antec model. Also bear in mind that the GeForce 650ti is an older model and has now been replaced with the better GeForce 750ti. Quote from: camerongray on March 25, 2014, 09:39:11 AM ....camerongray, you need to explain that. Have you personally tested hundreds of power supplies from different makers? How can you judge a book by its cover? Please elaborate. Quote from: Geek-9pm on March 25, 2014, 11:51:31 AM camerongray, you need to explain that. Have you personally tested hundreds of power supplies from different makers? How can you judge a book by its cover? If you do a lot of research online you will find that those brands consistently make really good performing PSUs. Other brands like Coolermaster and OCZ also make some good units but also make some really terrible ones so it's a lot harder to explain which are safe to use and which aren't. Finally, the cheap, off-brand ones are a really bad idea as they almost never can provide their rated capacity, lack crucial safety features, lie about their efficiency ratings and can damage other components in the system. You would also notice that I said "a brand like" to give examples of reputable brands, not an exhaustive list of every PSU manufacturer that is safe to use. Quote Finally, the cheap, off-brand ones are a really bad idea as they almost never can provide their rated capacity, lack crucial safety features, lie about their efficiency ratings and can damage other components in the system.No disrespect intended. I disagree is a certain way. Here is an observation. Power supplies for PC compatibles have been around for years. There is little, if any, legal restrictions to prevent one company from duplicating the same quality of material and assembly used by ANYONE else. The basic materials are readily available. More so that almost any other thing in a PC. Sodhow can one brand be better that another? Does the name really matter? There are many agencies that certify the quality of electronic materials and assembled units. FCC, UL and a host of others. So what research should one do? What do you look for? A nice brand name? How does that help. What makes a good brand name. Why is one name better that another? Who picks the names? Does a PSU maker need a PR department? Example: A restaurant may have a very nice French name and a GREAT reputation. True, But does that make other restaurants bad, unsafe or tasteless? There well may be be a large number of quality restaurants in a city. And a lot of bad ones. Yet the basic materials are, or should be, the same. The Health department can identify the bad ones, but do not tell you which have the most tasty food. You have to taste. So than, with regard to PSU, are you not going by the eyes and not the intellect? A 'cheap' PSU can be certified by the maker to have a MTBF or 100,000 hours at rated output. Is it a lie? maybe. Who tells the truth. Can you tell from a specification that the maker is honest, trustworthy and reliable? How does one measure integrity, honest and reliability? Is there a 'blacklist' of bad PSU makers? A white list? Is so, please tell me where. I have never found a real list of more than five names. Surely there t has to be more than just five bad and five good brands. Many articles from the pacific rim area do not have brand names that one would recognize. However, one can instigate the reputation of the vendor. IMHO, it is more of who you buy from rather that what brand it is. So know the vendor. End of my rant. Thank you. For reference: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supply-oem-manufacturer,2913.html Sure, not all power supplies sold under lesser known brands are bad, many can be quite good infact. The reason I always recommend getting a power supply from a known-good brand is exactly that, they are known to make good power supplies whereas the quality of lesser known brands can be a lot harder to tell. In most retail stores you will see two sets of PSUs - The really cheap, low end units and the good quality, well known brand units. Rarely do you see off branded units that are actually really good quality simply because in order to make them good quality, the price would reach up very close to the big brands therefore people wouldn't bother with them. The quality and lack of safety in many of the cheaper, off brand units is shocking (sometimes literally). They are almost always overrated - A good 500w unit can run at 500w all day long with no issues other than maybe the fan getting a bit loud, a cheap unit will likely start to struggle and have issues with voltages fluctuating around 250w and will likely FAIL well before it reaches 350w of load. They also lack critical safety features like over current protection and have often had filtering components removed causing interference back into the mains wiring. Recently against my better judgement I hooked up an old, cheap, off brand "Ace 520w" PSU to an old PC with the sole intention of getting some files off and then scrapping the PSU. This unit is widely available in many good computer stores and is widely used by some computer repair stores. In error I accidentally connected the floppy drive power connector one pin to the left which is a very easy mistake to make. Doing this I had created a short between +5v and GND. Instead of the PSU detecting this and shutting down like a good quality unit, it turned out that "Ace" or whoever made it had cut costs by removing the short circuit protection system (along with goodness knows how many other safety features) so the PSU continued running, I only noticed the short when I could see black smoke coming out of the PC (which continued to run the whole time) and after opening the machine I found the wiring from the PSU to all of the drive connectors (which was just a single line from the PSU because of course that's the best way to do it!) was completely melted. Now imagine what could have happened if I had left the room after turning the PC on! Quote There are many agencies that certify the quality of electronic materials and assembled units. FCC, UL and a host of others.And on the cheaper units, those certifications are often faked. This is easy to tell in some cases as the power supply lacks some basic safety features such as proper grounding of the case that means it would never come close to passing UL certification. Quote A 'cheap' PSU can be certified by the maker to have a MTBF or 100,000 hours at rated output. Is it a lie? maybe. Who tells the truth. Can you tell from a specification that the maker is honest, trustworthy and reliable?Of course you can't, but chances are that a well known manufacturer of power supplies are much more likely to tell the truth than a cheap, off brand manufacturer. If, for example Seasonic started claiming they have features that their PSUs don't actually have, someone would find out and ruin their reputation. An off brand doesn't have this issue as they have no real reputation to begin with. If there was some massive issue that completely ruined their name, all they would do is start branding their units under a different name! Besides all of this, cheaper PSUs have been caught lying about features and specifications all the time. Quote The Health department can identify the bad ones, but do not tell you which have the most tasty food. You have to taste.Unlike having a mouth, the average consumer does not have the extremely expensive tools, nor the expertise to test a power supply, therefore it is safer to avoid questionable ones and to go for known-good units. Quote However, one can instigate the reputation of the vendor. IMHO, it is more of who you buy from rather that what brand it is. So know the vendor.Not really the case, that "Ace" power supply above is sold by some of the UK's largest computer component retailers, Ebuyer and Aria. These are extremely reputable retailers however these power supplies are low quality, poorly made and downright dangerous. Quote A nice brand name? How does that help. What makes a good brand name. Why is one name better that another? Who picks the names? Does a PSU maker need a PR department?I don't care about the name itself, I look for a company who have been known to make good quality power supplies. I mean, look at Seasonic for example, they have very little marketing materials, their website is downright terrible but they make great power supplies and sell them under their own brand or make them for other companies What I did above was suggest a list of brands that consistently make good units, therefore the OP could safely buy any unit made by them safe in the knowledge that it would be a good power supply. Nowhere did I say that those are the only good manufacturers or that the OP must get a unit made by one of those brands. Do some research into the issues with cheap power supplies - Look at http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Review_Cat&recatnum=13/M12-700/ - These are proper tests of power supplies rather than just reviews left by people on the likes of Newegg which are not a reliable source in any way. And to see the issues with some low end power supplies, google "jonnyguru death of a gutless wonder" where they have properly tested low end units to show how bad they can be.OK. You made your point. Quote The quality and lack of safety in many of the cheaper, off brand units is shocking (sometimes literally). They are almost always overrated - A good 500w unit can run at 500w all day long with no issues other than maybe the fan getting a bit loud, a cheap unit will likely start to struggle and have issues with voltages fluctuating around 250w and will likely fail well before it reaches 350w of load. They also lack critical safety features like over current protection and have often had filtering components removed causing interference back into the mains wiring.That is very important. Poor safety features, or lack of, may cost much more that even the biggest high end power supplies that have all the needed features. May I add to this. The term 'over voltage' protection is not clearly defined. It should mean just that. But in extreme cases the circuitry in some designs will not work. The is no easy way a user can know if there will ever be a high power surge in his neighbor hood. Deluxe power supplies have extra over voltage protection otherwise often left out . Standard PUS may leave it out because it is not required to meet UL certification. The user should understand the risk of buying a lower price unit. Not that price alone is the factor, but price has to follow quality. Thinks for making this thread more comprehensive. Quote from: Geek-9pm on March 25, 2014, 07:13:10 PM There is little, if any, legal restrictions to prevent one company from duplicating the same quality of material and assembly used by anyone else.Companies like Corsair, Seasonic, etc. Have active Patents on their hardware designs. So, yes, there are legal restrictions preventing other companies from doing exactly that. for example, here is the search results for Corsair; the first page of patents has about half of them relating to Power Supply assembly or design. Quote The basic materials are readily available. More so that almost any other thing in a PC.Yes, but a reputable company is not going to infringe on patents. Usually those that do have nothing to lose because they have poor customer support, and use low-grade components. Quote Sodhow can one brand be better that another? Your reasoning is ridiculous. You can use the exact same logic to try to argue that every single CPU ever made should be identical. You completely ignor the fact that there are in fact different ways of organizing and designing a power supply, or methods of organizing the internals such that they provide consistent voltages while not requiring a vast number of components... in fact these are exactly the sorts of things that are patented. Quote Does the name really matter?Not as much as the fact that typically said companies will stand by their product. They certainly are more likely to do so than off-brand, cheap power supplies. Quote There are many agencies that certify the quality of electronic materials and assembled units. FCC, UL and a host of others.Most cheap power supplies do in fact infringe on patents held by Power Supply manufacturers. They infringe on said patents for the purpose of saving money by using both lower-cost materials. These lower-cost materials often consist of poorly manufactured capacitors and other electronic components, which are cheap for the very reason that they are known to be problematic. This is why low-grade, off-brand power supplies cause so many problems. Additionally, many cheap, low-end power supplies are problematic because due to those cheaper components they may also exclude appropriate logic for handling PWR_GOOD; the PWR_GOOD signal should only be active when the power supply knows it's output is going to be acceptable for PC operation- until that signal is present the system will stick in a CPU reset loop. Cheap power supplies wire the +5v rail directly to PWR_GOOD. Why? Because it's cheaper than doing it properly. That is WHY those power supplies are cheaper. Even if you could fairly argue they are made of the same materials, those materials are not put together in a responsible manner aiming for any sort of quality. They are put together and sold on the cheap to sell power supplies to people like yourself who have apparently forgotten that you don't just stick some raw materials in a mixing vat and get power supplies- work goes into their manufacture, work goes into acquiring the components, and work goes into designing the internal circuitry. Cheap supplies sacrifice some or all of these. Quote So what research should one do? What do you look for? A nice brand name? How does that help.Quite a lot, actually. See, there is a lot of information online by people with multimeters who monitor the power supply under operation, or not under load; These tests are pretty conclusive in that cheap power supplies are crap, and there are several brands where those outputs are more reliable. In Scott Muellers "Upgrading and Repairing PCs": Quote Unfortunately, the ratings on cheap or poorly made power supplies cannot always be trusted. For example, I’ve seen Quote What makes a good brand name. Why is one name better that another? Who picks the names? Does a PSU maker need a PR department?No. They need to make power supplies that don't suck. And stand by their product. Cheap Power supplies are provided with a Manual that could be mistaken for a Sushi Menu, if any manual at all, are rated at much higher than they can actually deliver, and are poorly designed using poor-quality components. Arguing that "ALL PSUs are created equal" is like arguing that "All capacitors are created equal" they are not. Many capacitors do not pass the quality test and end up in the wholesale bargain bin for use in crappy clock radios. The cheap Power supply manufacturers gobble them up and use those in their power supply. That is how they are able to cut costs. It's not because they don't have a PR department, it's because they don't want a PR department. a PR department is for a company that is willing to have a dialog with their customer. Cheap Power Supply manufacturers don't. Quote Example: A restaurant may have a very nice French name and a great reputation. True, But does that make other restaurants bad, unsafe or tasteless?Following your analogy- no, it doesn't. what makes those other restaurants bad is that they use wilted lettuce in salads, they use the cheapest cuts and pass it off as steak, and their entire soup menu is handled by a pantry full of Campbells. Quote Yet the basic materials are, or should be, the same.They aren't. For example: A good restaurant makes soup. a... 'less good' restaurant doesn't make soup- they defrost it. Quote So than, with regard to PSU, are you not going by the eyes and not the intellect?No. You would be going on the years of research and information available on the ratings and actual outputs of the power supplies in question. off-brand power supplies seldom live up to even their own claims, sometimes they defy the ATX standard (the "directly wiring +5v to the PWR_GOOD" thing being the favourite). Quote A 'cheap' PSU can be certified by the maker to have a MTBF or 100,000 hours at rated output. Is it a lie? maybe. Who tells the truth. Can you tell from a specification that the maker is honest, trustworthy and reliable?Are you kidding me? You can tell from history and research. Companies like Corsair, Seasonic, etc have a well documented history of living up to their claims and they have warranties. Off-brand power supplies provide no such warranty, and if they do, it's yet another lie that they seldom honor. There are already YEARS of forum posts, articles, and even book chapters (the aforementioned 21 editions of "Upgrading and Repairing PCs" which goes back to the early 80's) written on the subject. Your implication that effectively asserts that these things to not exist and we must evaluate all power supplies with only the information on their packaging is at best disingenuous. Quote How does one measure integrity, honest and reliability?In the case of power supplies- using a multimeter. Or, you can use Google and find out what other people who use multimeters have said. Quote Is there a 'blacklist' of bad PSU makers?Actually: this raises another point: the manufacturers who make cheaper PSU's have this strange habit of changing their name frequently. Now why would they do that? Can't believe this dove-tailed into French Cuisine... Oh well. |
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